ICE: The American Gestapo | The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich
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The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich
Robert Reich
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And it is the Saturday coffee clutch with Heather Loft House and yours truly, Robert Rush. Heather, it's good to have
you back and good to see you again and good to be back. Yes, you. You, you. Um, so what are we going to talk about
today? Let's talk about this new level of provocation that's happening around
Trump. Yeah. This new level of resistance that we're seeing. We'll have a stop by by Lena
Khan. Oh, she's one of my very excited about. Then we'll get into what you can do,
what we can do to fight back at this incredibly hard time. It is an incredibly hard time. Uh and I
would say that this week is probably the worst week I remember week and a half u
of the entire Trump regime first and second uh just because the level of
outrage and violence and uh provocation seems to be just just much much higher.
Uh ratcheting up. It's ratcheting up in ways that I think people, you know, I knew it was going to get worse because I
knew this is really the last year that Trump and Stephen Miller and, you know,
Russell Voit and all these other people vote, all these other people around him, uh, and the billionaires, this is the
last year. They know they can't do anything more or there's a big chance they can't do anything more after the
midterms. Uh, but I have to admit when I see the the the war that is going on, I
mean, it is a a a war footing in Minneapolis and several of our other cities and what's happening to
individual Americans being murdered and shot and uh, you know, dragged out of
their homes. U, I mean, I'm I'm really
shocked and amazed. I know. didn't think it was going to happen here. I didn't think I mean again if you if
you looked at Donald Trump and his sociopathic tendencies and the people around him who he's attracted and
appointed yes it was going to happen here but I didn't really fundamentally deeply believe we would get to this
point. I know and you mentioned all the domestic horrificness but how about the
global stage? I mean it just feels like it's mushrooming. Well, if I mean, if you had asked me uh even a year ago,
would there be troops uh shooting people and killing people in Minneapolis? Would
there would would would Greenland be under siege essentially.
I don't think it was mentioned in project 2025, was it? Greenland. I mean, it would almost be a
joke. People would say Greenland. I mean, you would they would laugh uh a year ago. Uh, but the fact is the
Europeans are now sending troops to Greenland, not to convince Donald Trump
that he doesn't have to worry about Greenland in terms of Russia. No, they're sending troops to Greenland. And
we're talking about Denmark. Reconnaissance and France and Britain and Sweden.
Yeah. I mean, they're sending troops to to Greenland to stop the Americans.
Yeah. There's an operation. I know. That's those are our allies. Those are our biggest allies. Well, I mean, it's
like the people in Minneapolis are us. I mean, we are Americans shooting and killing Americans
and we are our allies in Greenland are there to try to protect Greenland from
us. I mean, this is really upside down and it's not dangerous. Doesn't even
describe the degree of absurdity and underlying uh just bizarre. I I think a
lot
of Americans just can't believe what's going on. I know. And so I feel
like you and I have spoken about it many times and how
he's loathed some. And we've used these kinds of words and we I think we both still agree with that. But this level of
global manipulation. I mean it's economic, it's militaristic and more he wants more members of ICE
going into Minneapolis. He threatened or mentioned the insurrection act a couple days ago.
Yes. and and the and ICE is actually actively remember the big ugly bill gave
ICE huge resources and the Department of Homeland Security gigantic bill you know
tens of billions of dollars more uh to put ICE and Border Patrol agents on the
street. Now, at the time you and I talked about this, I again, you know, it was an abstraction. They are there and
ISIS recruiting and in order to meet Steven Miller's quota
for deportation, they are lowering their standards for recruitment. This is
something that is extraordinary. I mean the the the armed forces the formal armed forces you know they are trained
carefully uh in in terms of the use of lethal weapons but and strategy and
but there's no such training going on with regard to ICE or even the border patrol uh and
and the and the admissions process is not rigorous. I mean that's part of the
problem. And we look here in Minneapolis and I heard the mayor the other day saying we have 600 police officers here
and we have 3,000 ICE representatives officials. I mean think
of think of that ratio. 600 police officers in Minneapolis who have for
years kept the peace, kept the order, you know, become parts of the they are from the community. And then you have
3,000 ICE agents patrolling the streets, some of them in, you know, in in
unidentified cars and and you have people uh I mean, I have friends who are
telling me what's going on there and I it's hard to believe it is a war zone. What I want to touch on and I want you
to help me with this is what average people out there I mean people you all
of you what you can do and I have some ideas we'll talk about it later but it's
um you know kids aren't going to school uh a lot of kids and it's not just the
Latino kids. I mean, first of all, you've got to understand, uh, ICE originally told us and the Department of
of uh, Homeland Security says, you said, "We are only going to target people who
have criminal backgrounds who are here illegally." What they are now doing, obviously, is
they are targeting anybody, particularly anybody who has a Hispanic or Latino
last name, who looks Hispanic or Latino, whether they're here legally or not. and
a lot of the non-Hispanic, non-Latino people who are trying to protect them
and trying to warn them about where ICE is. So, this is no long this is this is
they're beyond beyond any mandate, right? And Christine Gnome, every time she comes on the screen, she just says,
"We're
doing what we have to do." You know, there's no Christine Gnome, I
mean, these people, it's it's just like it's like it's JD
Vance. They're they they they they're calling um you know Renee Good uh a I
mean all kinds of names they're making they're the FBI is investigating domestic terrorist
uh leftwing wacko I mean all they want to other her
instead of instead of investigating you know the ICE people or the ICE
agents who are who are again it's not just the one who shot her in cold blood a lot of them are doing things that they
should never ever be doing in any city. Uh but in instead of that kind of investigating, they're investigating
so-called left left-wing radicals. Um and they're saying this, we're teaching
people a lesson. I mean, they're leaning into it. They are. Of course, they're leaning into it because Trump is leaning into it
because that he is the commander-in-chief and he is uh has turned Department of Homeland Security
into his own private brown shirt, Gestapo. I mean it's kind of it is an American
gest but a lot of people in Minneapolis are showing up and resisting right?
Yes. They are showing up despite all of this and it's relatively peaceful. I mean
well amazing restraint. I mean I I love Minneapolis. It's one of my favorite cities. Twin cities St. Paul as well.
People are common sensical. These are people. This is Midwest nice. you know,
even
Midwest, nice common sense. Not to generalize, uh, not to generalize,
but they do have a sense of of, uh, you know, we're all
in this together and a sense of social justice and fairness and community. Community,
what do we owe each other? I you owe an existence and the dignity not to be attacked for nothing,
let alone killed. One of my former students out there contacted me this week and he said, um,
you know, people, you don't understand. You're not getting this from the evening news or from uh social media, but we all
here in Minneapolis on the street, we are working together. This resistance is pulling us together. Uh multi-racial,
multithnic, multiclass. Uh he said he has never seen the degree of solidarity
on the street. Makes me feel better. Well, it makes me feel better, too. But u this is a war that's going on, and
it's not just Minneapolis. I mean, it has been going on in other cities in Chicago. Uh, it was in Portland. It
could come back. I mean, this this is um Los Angeles was on the list, remember? Yeah. Yeah. And Washington. I mean,
this this this sociopath who is sitting in the Oval Office knows no bounds.
Heather, this is, you know, it also this past week something happened that I was
I was amazed, shocked. Wait, is it what I was going to say? I don't know. What were you going to say?
H Jerome Powell. That is ridiculous. That's exactly what I was going to say. Keep going. No, I mean a criminal investigation
of the of the head of the of the Federal Reserve renovations
about his renovations. You know who has been renovating? Yeah. I mean really this is I mean the hypocrisy the
hypocrisy you know Trump Trump is very concerned about the protesters in tan
you know in Iran uh you know he if they're if they're in trouble you know
we we America is going to come to their rescue don't worry but what about the protesters in in Minneapolis I mean it's
the same thing about you know you go after a criminal indictment a criminal
invest stigation of the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board who Trump appointed in the first term. Uh
but what does this do to financial markets? Well, it it it does one very predictable
thing and it makes everybody worried. I mean, all of those people who are heading to Davos, all of the bankers,
all all of the all of the heads of financial institutions, former secretaries of the Treasury. I mean,
that talk about a backlash, a resistance. Uh this is the establishment, the financial
establishment saying you can't do what you're doing to Jerome Powell. You can't
investigate him criminally. It's a pretext. Powell himself gets up and
makes a speech. I was surprised because the I was surprised but found it terrific. It was terrific. I mean, talk about
finally
within one hour he was out there clear this is what this is. Goodbye.
Back to my job. It's a pretext. It is a pretext. This is
what but you know I really I'm waiting for all of this establishment and all of
these financial titans and corporate titans uh to to say, "Wait a minute.
Everything's a pretext for Trump. Why should Trump be in Minneapolis? Why should IEC be doing this? Uh, why are
you doing this to America? Well, they're doing it with regard to Powell because
their bottom lines are affected. Because if the Fed loses its credibility as a
fighter of inflation, right? If it if it's no longer independent, then nobody can rely on
inflation being held in check. Which means that every transaction, every
investment, every borrowing, everything, everything that's going on in the private sector in financial terms has to
include a financial risk premium on the possibility that inflation is going to
be bigger and bigger and bigger. And that's going to be costly. And that makes everything more costly. And that
really is part of the backwards affordability agenda. This is this is
Trump's ass backwards affordability agenda. Making things more expensive rather than less
and claiming constantly that prices are down and prices aren't down. We we just
learned that prices are there's no dimmonition in inflation. Uh and food
prices especially are going up. Grocery prices are going up. Uh and it's no
wonder because all the imports um and all of the and also there is no increase
at all in manufacturing jobs. Manufacturing employment continues to
drop. Heather, why? It's you don't have to be a rocket scientist. You don't even have to be an
economist. You don't have to be anybody who understands anything. These tariffs and the uncertainty.
But you watch all his minions, all of his deputies that he is deputized with
speaking. I mean, they're mouthpieces, right? So, you see the um secretary of a
go up there on TV, you know, and say, "We've run a thousand simulations, and you can have a chicken meal for $3 or
less. It is a chicken. It's a piece of broccoli, and we have run the simulations." I mean, this is this is
what
people are saying. I know. Well, the Secretary of Agriculture, she
said, you know, you can you can actually live on almost nothing.
I mean, and at the same time that we're making America healthier again, blah blah blah blah blah blah. I mean, but it's just
example after example of people just getting up there. It's just so it's it's one big lie propaganda machine
and it's a propaganda machine that is now actually not working. I mean if you look at the polls yes
u he's down I mean among independents now independents people who are neither
Republicans nor Democrats uh his the independents are 45% of the of the
entire voting public 45% his standing among independents his sinking so fast
uh the last last thing I saw was 24% approval of Trump
among independents Even among and of course Democrats it's even lower and even among Republicans
it's dropping considerably very fast. But here's the problem, Heather. He
doesn't give a [ __ ] No. In fact, he loves the chaos. He loves it. He loves it. Did you see
what
he did to the factory worker in in Detroit? You know, the factory
worker yells. I mean, this is part of the resistance. You have somebody a
factory
worker saying to him, you know, he's a he's a pervert. No, he said pedophile protector.
Pedophile protector. He yelled. That's pretty civil. That's pretty civil. That's not exactly
a resistance. That's good descript. So he yells it. Trump walks, gets a
little pissed off and then takes a step and says, "Oops, can I do that?" Yes. He says, "Fuck." He says, "Fuck he
twice." And of course, all the cameras get it. And then he gives him the finger. I mean what a
and now that man has been put on suspension right under an investigation
UAW he a lot of he allow lot there was a fund set up for him to help him with his
legal problems and then he what did he do he well so he had a gofund me someone set
it up and he raised $800,000 or something and he said time out stop giving it to me give it to people who
need it but thank you yeah he's interesting I think his name is TJ. Yeah. So that was Trump was on
his to on a tour with CBS News and Tony Dabble heading around the country.
CBS News. What a disgusting place that is. I was watching, you know, I grew up
with you know CBS journalist Edward Ar Muro. Now I didn't grow up with Edward
Arrow but I knew him and I saw him and the career of uh you know Senator Joseph
McCarthy. I mean CBS News, Edward Ar Muro, Walter Kankhite. I mean these were
giants. Yeah. And now you have what's his name? Tony Duke Ducppel.
Duke who's a basically an apologist for Trump. Yeah.
And the whole CBS news team. Yeah. And he went from morning to evening overnight. Well,
but also so much of this you were saying that a year ago this would have been we wouldn't have believed Greenland and Oh,
and he's the president of acting president of Venezuela. I mean, all these things he said, you know, this last week he
called himself acting president of Venezuela. We're talking about Trump. Yeah. I mean, but this is all self-inflicted. I mean,
this is what's so interesting. Uh we could have imagined a pl a version of the world where there were things
happening overseas and we America could have said do we want to lean in here? I mean hello Ukraine and Russia this was
already happening. But all of this stuff what's happening in Minneapolis, Greenland, Venezuela,
I mean do I he's brought it on. This is an important point. You go back a year uh and America
I mean the economy was pretty good. In fact, it was we were we were the trends were solid.
Oh, not only were the trends Oh, yes. Unemployment and economic growth and and
uh everything we cared about in terms of now prices were too high. Um but they
were, you know, that was that was partly the result of of supply chain sort of uh
shocks over, you know, the pandemic, right? You know, it takes long time to get
those supply chains back. Uh so but everything else was was in pretty good order. Uh we didn't have foreign policy
crisis. We didn't have crises in Minneapolis or any of our other cities. We didn't have, you know, we're now in a
world that is created by Donald Trump. The chaos is all Donald Trump. The
tariffs, Donald Trump. The ICE uh you know, troops shooting Americans, Donald
Trump. Greenland, Donald Trump. Yep. Yep. The tariffs. Yeah. We don't
even
talk about the tariffs anymore. The taxes. What do we call them? Well,
they're they're import taxes. They are import taxes. And they
you know, I was I was talking to uh somebody who really knows what's
happening in the economy much better than I do uh on the ground. And he said that the only reason that prices have
not actually gone faster higher is the big corporations that are importing,
they don't want to lose market share. So they are they're paying those import taxes for the time being
and they're eating them just, you know, but any day, any week, they're going to start jacking up the prices, consumer
prices to pay themselves back for all of the, you know, basically the import
taxes that they are paying. So I what do we do?
Well, there is a kind of question. What what do we do? But before we get to that
question, I just I want to make sure that we talk about Trump's fake
populism because in light of all of this, there is this big blowback, you
know, and I mean the the polls are dropping and
Trump because he is being told or he thinks or he watches television um and
he watches the news and he what he's getting is that the affordability crisis is a big deal. He keeps on saying it's a
Democratic sham, but he feels like he's got to do something. He's got to show something. So, all of this [ __ ] that
he's putting out, you know, he's going to put a 10% onto truth social and then in his talking points and every time he's at a
podium and all his mouthpieces and you know that his core MAGA troops,
you
know, they believe him. He says, "Well, I'm going to I'm going to keep
housing prices. I'm going to let get housing prices down. I'm going to
get
grocery prices down. I'm going to do all of this." And he has all of these, but it's fake populism,
right? It's the 10%. I interrupted you. 10% cap on interest rates on credit cards for the first year.
And then what were Oh, CEO pay. There have been a bunch of them this week. Look at me. I care about I'm on your
side. Well, Elizabeth Warren and um you know, she she actually did have a meeting or a
phone meeting with Trump. uh and uh you know, I mean, he's saying things that
are consistent with some of the proposals she's made, but she knows and everybody else on the inside knows how
much [ __ ] this is. Also, you don't hear Epstein much right now. It's interesting when you take over
the world and ruin the economy and threaten to bring the military. You think there might be some deflection
going on? Maybe it's subconscious, but really I mean that's what happened.
Pedophile protector became Yeah. [ __ ] you. I mean he's not dumb. Watch
him ramp that up. So he's not dumb when it comes to combat, when it comes to war, when it comes to
marketing combat, his his enemies and people who oppose him. Yeah. In fact, I think one of the most
interesting phenomenon going on. I think historians looking back on this p period
will see that there's been a total realignment of who is on one side and
who's on the other. Uh so instead of it being the United States versus you know
the the old Soviet Union or Russia or the authoritarians instead of it being
you know Americans together we find the line goes down through on the one side
Trump supporters inside the United States and outside the United States and
Trump opponents inside the United States and outside the United States. It's
almost as if the world's being cleaved in a totally different way. So Heather,
it's pretty clear Donald Trump is a fake populist, fake progressive. He's not going to do anything that he is talking
about doing. U we have a guest today who's going to help us understand this
because she is working for a real progressive populist social democrat
mayor. It's Lena Khan. Lena Khan is one of my favorite people. Lena, thank you so much for being with us today.
Welcome. So great to be here with you. Just uh we were talking about Trump's fake populism. Do you agree that it's
fake fake populism? Well, look, I think if you focus on what he's actually done rather than what he
is saying, then absolutely. I mean, the signature legislative accomplishment of
this administration has been to throw tens of thousands of people off their healthcare to fund a wealth a tax break
for the wealthiest of the wealthy in this country. Uh they have shuttered key
federal agencies that were on the front lines of protecting Americans from corporate lawb breakakers, from
corporate scammers, from price gougers. And so I mean on its face it's really
difficult to square whatever populism we hear once in a while with the actual
actions that this administration has taken. He has defanged your agency, my old
agency, the Federal Trade Commission, and also the Consumer Financial Protection Agency. And he continues to,
you know, this is this is this is what Trump is is really known for. He says
things that have absolutely no consequence. He just says, you know, it's like, I would love to have this or
this is going to happen or and nobody holds him accountable for anything. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting it's
an interesting phenomena for sure. And we saw even during the campaign, he was talking about capping, you know, credit
card uh fees and and rates. And so, you know, there is some component of of him
or his coalition that I think recognizes that people want a leader who's willing
to stand up to corporate law breakers and powerful interests. But then you just look at who he was surrounded by at
his inauguration, right? The kind of, you know, billionaires and and oligarchs uh who more or less have have gotten
everything they want out of this administration. And so there's just a fundamental tension there. He keeps
talking about prices are down, grocery prices are down. He says he's going to cap interest rates for credit cards at
10%. Though then we see for one year, let's be clear about that. He's talked about CEO pay. He's talked about getting
private equity out of single family home purchasing, home, yeah, rental units. I mean, but
nothing is going to happen. I mean, we know this. Nothing nothing is going to happen. Uh Lena, can we uh just pivot to
something that is much po more positive and that is the Mam Dane administration
and what you guys are doing. Uh and uh I mean I'm impressed already. It looks
like child care may come through. Yeah, I mean Mayor Mandani has really hit the ground running and you know it's
only been a couple of weeks but every day there has been some new announcements, some new action. I think
he is honestly really demonstrating what it looks like for Democrats to govern
assertively rather than meekly. Uh, you know, within his first day, he announced
uh new, you know, protections that he'd be seeking for tenants. He actually visited uh a slumlord building and was
kind of inspecting the horrible conditions there. Announced that they would be doing these rental ripoff
hearings across the city to hear directly from tenants. He passed an executive order that is going to be
initiating a crackdown on junk fees, on subscription traps. And just yesterday,
he stood with uh deputy mayor for economic justice, Julie Sue, uh head of the the worker consumer and worker
protection agency, Sam Leavine, and announced a major lawsuit that the city has initiated against one of these uh
delivery app companies where they were, you know, breaking the law and abusing their workers. And so, uh, he's really
eager to act, act quickly, urgently, and and make a difference in people's lives.
Lena, I know New York City, uh, and I know how almost impossible it has been
for even the best people who have been mayor uh, to get good things done
because there's so many special interests that are very, very powerful in New York. Uh, so what how I mean,
he's hit the ground running. Is he going to be able to continue that? And if so, where is he getting the political
backwinds to help him continue to have victories? Well, he won, you know, the mayoral race
with with more number of votes than than any mayoral candidate going back decades. Uh there is a clear political
mandate here. And he's no stranger to special interests. Uh it's fair to say he was not the preferred candidates of
the special interests of New York City. uh and and you know prove them wrong and and prove that he could build a winning
coalition. And he's very focused on how do you govern in a way that is keeping
engaged the very people that got him elected. Uh and you know all too often
uh people cast their vote and then they never hear from their government again and four years go by and they're like
what actually changed in my life if anything and that's not a model of governing that he wants to follow. He
really wants to be hearing directly from the people of the city. He is regularly out in the streets with them. He is very
aware of how oftentimes these positions of power are structured in a way so that
the only people you're usually hearing from are the CEOs, are the lobbyists, are the special interests. And he wants
to be a mayor that breaks from that and that is actually hearing from the masses across New York every day. Um, and so I
think that's going to be a key input. He created this new office of mass engagement um and is and is thinking
very hard about how can he make sure he is directly hearing from the broad swath of the population rather than just the
special interests. Interesting. Office of mass engagement. Yeah, I like that. You know, Barack Obama uh
tried to keep all his, you know, voters and supporters together to push things
that he thought were important, but that really didn't last. Uh it was very hard to keep them together. But it may be
that at the city level and particularly with Mayor Mumdani uh you have you know he had an army of a 100,000 people going
doortodoor including my granddaughter uh uh on his behalf and maybe that that's the answer.
You you keep that kind of army. You activate people before you're elected to the extent that they just keep keep
going. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's certainly, you know, a challenge for how do you really do this? And so many of the default ways
to engage with government are set up for those special interests and the experts, right? Submit a comment uh in this is no
notice and comment docket, right? I mean, people don't necessarily have time for that or you know, so so how you
actually construct opportunities for people to be engaging and sharing their stories is going to be really key. Um,
and you know, he's shown he's interested in tackling problems big and small. Um,
you know, in the first week he went and fixed this notorious bump that had been
on one side of the Williamsburg bridge that had become a huge hazard for the Williamsburg bump. I remember the
Williamsburg bump. Exactly. And he, you know, said, "Let's fix this.
Can we fix it tomorrow? Let's go do it." And and did it. And so, you know, I think there is a real eagerness to show
tangible progress and improvements in people's lives as quickly as possible, wherever that may be.
So, he's a terrific example of taking power and doing progressive goodness
with it. And we have a lot of different mayors, governors who are now taking power and figuring things out. Um,
Seattle, Miami, I mean, this is and Boston. Yep. But so but my question for you is
what can other dems learn from this? I mean if you can make it there you can make it anywhere right? If you can make
social democracy work in there you can make it anywhere. What are aren't there bigger lessons here? I mean people keep
saying oh he wasn't going to win. He was going to win. He did. He's acting. What should other people be taking from that?
Well look first of all he he's really curious about the problems that people face in his day-to-day life in their
day-to-day lives. And one of the things he did throughout his campaign was went and listened to people, right? One of
the first videos he made was he asked people who they voted for in the 2024 election and asked Trump voters why they
voted for him. Uh, you know, a few months later, he went and interviewed uh somebody who runs a halal cart here and
asked, you know, why why has why is it that chicken and rice used to be $8 and now it's $10? Like, what changed for
you? Right? So he has this posture and position of wanting to learn from people
about what are the day-to-day problems and then he's interested in figuring out what can we actually do about it. What
are existing legal authorities, existing tools that we already have that we can
use in an assertive way. And I think there's no substitute for that groundwork both on the curiosity and
learning and then being eager to use existing tools. Beyond that though, he's also demonstrated courage and a desire
to fix people's problems even when it means standing up to very very powerful
interests. And for my time at the FTC, I certainly sensed that there is a real
hunger across this country in red states and blue states and purple states.
People want a government that is willing to fight for them and fight special interests and fight
the big big money. I mean, uh, New York City, you know, uh, I do not know the
people who were outraged because they're all in Davos or they're going to Dav
going to Davos. Uh, but the financial community in New York particularly, uh, they say, "No, I we don't want taxes. We
don't want higher taxes. We're going to we're going to do everything we can to avoid it." Um, and, uh, I mean, we we
even see that in here. Uh there's a there's a wealth tax proposal in
California and a lot of even Democrats uh very wealthy Democrats are saying no
no way no way we're going to do that. So tell us how do you think uh Mayor
Mumdani is going to deal with the big money in New York? Yeah, it's a it's a great question. I
mean a lot of this comes down to um you know what are actions that are within
his own disposal and control versus what are initiatives that are going to
require city council to act or the state legislature to act or the governor. You
know obviously when he is dependent on other institutional actors you know there's going to be um an opportunity
for the people who got him elected to also make clear to them what do they want to see from those people too. And
so, uh, you know, I think it's it's going to be a situation where we need to see that that courage and that
engagement continue. Do we think the billionaires will come back from Davos? Are they just going to stay there? Manhattan yet?
Maybe just, you know, maybe that's the way we deal with this billionaire problem. Just keep them in Davos. Um,
Lena, how are you? How how is I mean, besides being cold in New York City, I
mean, how's your morale? has your spirit uh in the midst of uh you know not only Mum Donnie but your part of the country
and you see what's happening in Minneapolis and elsewhere. I mean it's a deeply disturbing
depressing time uh on so many fronts. Uh you know people's insurance premiums
just skyrocketed. Uh they're going to be people who are going to no longer be able to affect no no longer be able to
afford health insurance. Uh people are already having to ration their medicines. uh people are having to take
out loans just to buy groceries. So this is a difficult time for people before
you even introduce kind of you know authoritarian forces and dynamics that we're seeing. And I think that's why the
stakes are so extraordinarily high um here in New York but across the country and and people again are really looking
for leaders who are going to lead us out of this mess. Well, you are now working for a leader who will hopefully is
already leading us out of this mess. Uh, and you are a leader who is leading us out of this mess. Uh, Lena Khan, thank
you for your time and your energy and your leadership. Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, come back for coffee soon. Yes, that's right. Please join us out here in the Bay Area.
I would love to. So, can we talk about You said this earlier and you promised and we promised we would get to this.
What can you do? What can we do? So, we've heard a little bit about what policies on the policy level, what's
happening and what people can do to help consumers, but what do what are the average American do? What you've done
some good substacks, given us some lists of things. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, kind of meh. Um,
decent for a change. Well, what what I think what people really want
out there and and I hear from a lot of people and I see a lot of people what they want is to know what specifically
what steps they can take. For example, uh right now
uh we are on the weekend starting Monday uh actually Tuesday because Monday is
Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Uh what I would recommend people do is call your
member of Congress uh both your representative and also your your senators and tell them not to approve
the Department of Homeland Security appropriation bill, the spending bill
that is one of the few spending bills that has not been approved. don't approve it unless ICE is disarmed.
And there are provisions in that bill that said that say ICE may not target people on the basis of their race or
ethnicity or uh their accent. Uh and also that ICE agents do not have total
immunity from any pro prosecution or from uh from any civil lawsuit if they
harm people. And we're talking Dems and Republicans. Dems and Republicans be standing up against this
and independents in Congress have to be united to the extent they can. You know,
the margin in the House that the h that the Republicans have right now is down to about two people. I
mean, Michael Johnson is holding on barely. Uh and this this appropriation has got to get through the House and
it's also got to get through the Senate and you need 60 votes in the Senate. So this is a time for Democrats to say no
to ICE. Now they may not be able to say abolish ICE, but at the at the very least disarm ICE.
So if we can't agree on this appropriations bill, then are we going to have a shutdown again? We're not
a partial shutdown with regard to, for example, the Department of Homeland Security. Too bad,
right? But this is going to take courage and we recognize that it takes a great deal of courage. But I
think the public is so upset. A majority of Americans are so upset. We have to
respond. And this is something and I want to I'm going to say this again. I
just want to make sure you call your senators and your representative, your
members of Congress. call them Tuesday because Monday is Martin Luther
King Jr. Day. Um, call them and you know what the switchboard is? I don't have it
in my head, but I should. The congressional switchboard. U, in fact, we're going to put them Yeah.
right here. Here's the here's the number. Call this number. Tell them who
your senator and your representatives are. If you don't know, just tell them where you're from. uh and connect and
just say number one, don't approve that appropriation bill for the Department of
Homeland Security unless ICE is disarmed and unless there is no targeting of
people based on their ethnicity or their race or their accent. And also number
three, that there is no total immunity for ICE agents and for border patrol
agents who harm citizens, harm
the residents of our of our cities, who harm people on the street. There is no
total absolute immunity. So this is one very clear important immediate thing
that people can do. Yep. I liked when Camal was here too and he um Camal Bell was on the coffee clutch last week um
visited us and he just said volunteer, get out there, stay active, stay I mean
there's such a it's so upsetting what's happening and so keeping busy in your
community and and writing and writing postcards and making sure that you are beginning to
lay the foundation for getting the vote out uh for the midterms which coming faster, you know, than not as fast as
we'd like, but coming along, right? Uh and also boycotting um businesses
that are enabling what is going on. And I like the non-ooperation
kind of stuff. You can delete apps, delete the apps, make it less easy for
them to be using all of us for What kind of apps do you have that I don't have any? Starbucks.
Starbucks. That kind of thing. You know, you have a Starbucks app? No. But if I did, I would be deleting it.
Good. You know, that kind of thing. It's like, who can you be supporting? Where can you be supporting workers? Where can you be
having a voice in some tiny way? Um, also we got to do it all.
Also boycotting Tesla, boycotting Dell. You know, Dell is a big technology IT
firm that is helping ICE right now. Uh, in fact, we ought to be and we will be
providing maybe next week. uh or I'll write a Substack the specifics on who
you should boycott Y in terms of making ICE less effective right and less
powerful. The other thing you did in your Substack was you said you called on so many
levels of organizations to be speaking out more than they are in solidarity. So
you mentioned nonprofits, you mentioned forprofits, um religious groups, religious leaders.
Talk to us about that. Well, it's just we are all most of us are uh employees or we are members of congregations uh or
we are members of unions or alumni of things alumni of various things uh universities
and all of these organizations all of them ought to be speaking out against
this fascism that we are now experiencing. Uh, you know, I'm old enough to remember, Heather, during the
civil rights movement and also during the antivietnam era, uh, a lot of presidents of a lot of
institutions sounded the alarm. Uh, they were moral leaders of this country. Why
shouldn't that happen now? Even CEOs, I mean, it's hard to imagine, but a lot of
CEOs uh, like Jamie Diamond, of JP Morgan Chase, they're now over there uh,
in Davos. uh but they pride themselves on being socially
responsible, on being spokesperson for the spokespeople for the business community. They ought to be out there
criticizing Trump. Now granted, they don't want to poke the bear. They don't
want to risk that he's going to be uh you know ret he's going to exercise some
retribution against them. But if there was ever a time for courage, ever a time for for leaders to actually act like
leaders, it is now. So what we can do as members, as employees, as members of
congregations, and and all of the priests and all the rabbis, the bishops, uh they ought to be speaking out. We
have got to get them to speak out. We've got to organize these congregations. We've got to organize our our our fellow
employees. We've got to organize alumni. We can do that. Yep. Yeah. And I'm excited for the next
no Kings date to be announced because I don't think it's been announced yet. And so peaceful protest. We're allowed to do
it. Americans were supposed to do it. What about a general strike? I mean, yeah.
I mean, it could be a general strike in terms of not working, but it also could be a general strike in terms of not
buying. Suppose we all decided that for a certain period of time, maybe a week or
two, we were not going to buy a thing. Yeah. Two weeks is long. Well, it it is long, but I mean, we can
stockpile beforehand, but I'm just saying to in terms of making a statement
about our power as consumers. Yeah.
You know a thing or two about this kind of stuff. I don't know much, but I thought you were going to say, you know,
you love me. I know I love you. Oh, and I love you. Okay, so we have
Martin Luther King Jr. Day coming up. So speaking of civil disobedience, talk
about I mean it's helpful to think about the perspective. I mean he what he was up against in terms of civil rights and
then also economic power. I mean he had such a multiaceted
way of com I mean he just wanted he was fighting so many causes. Yeah.
I feel like we owe it to him and people like him to keep going. Imagine what he was up against.
Um it's hard to imagine really truly. But um he had faith, faith
in the country, uh faith in his fellow human beings, uh and faith ultimately that he and his
cause would prevail. Yeah. Now, you could argue that we still have
the roots of racism and the terrible sin of slavery. Yes. That we are still contending with
obviously. Uh but his memory and his birthday is coming up
uh is critically important. By the way, do you remember Donald Trump by executive order?
Uh you know that Martin Luther King Jr. birthday was a day you had a free pass
to all of the federal parks. Well, Donald Trump has ended that and
instead he substituted his own birthday. So you have a free pass to the national parks on Trump's birthday,
but not on Martin Luther King Jr. What a megalomaniac.
He's a conservationist. A terrible. Has do you think he's been to a national park?
Do you think he's been I don't That's a good question. That's a good question. He doesn't seem like he's ever been
seem like a park guy, a park or to any place in a beautiful central park maybe once accidentally.
Yeah. He didn't want to be Well, you know what he did with the Central Park? No, that was RFK Jr. You mean the bear?
No, this is this is when Donald Trump accused uh these young black
Oh, right. kids of attacking uh you know this this this person in Central Park uh with no
evidence.
Yeah. Uh and he took out a full page ad in the New York Times. He's not
you know, we don't hold him accountable for the
totality of his person. He also doesn't hold himself accountable. I mean, they were,
you
know, proven innocent and he didn't say, "Listen, I'm going to take out
another ad that says my bad." You um, you know, I I read uh Lord
Trump's I thought you said Lord I read Lord Trump. No, Lord Trump. Um, her book her book
trying to explain the origins of her uncle's pathology. And yeah, read it.
Uh, and Eugene Carol I have I've been telling you to read that book for a year.
It's fabulous. I mean, she's really, really, really good. Um, Heather, we have to end our time
together. I know. See you in a week, right? I really kind of depend on it. I'll see you. I'll see you. And I'm I want to say
just something to wrap this up and to connect all of
the pieces if I can because the level and intensity of my rage and anger
and I assume yours and yours has reached a uh a new intensity
over the past week. And the question is what we do with our
outrage. You know, I'm sometimes tempted to just
despair. I really am. Uh and I do sometimes feel depressed.
And I understand it if you are feeling the same way. And I because it's you
feel powerless. you feel, you know, this we're watching a terrible, terrible, terrible uh movie, but it's real. Uh,
and that sense of powerlessness easily slides into hopelessness.
But as Heather was saying, Martin Luther King Jr., whose birthday we celebrate
Monday, did not allow himself
to fall into hopelessness. Uh, one of my favorite quotes that he
wrote uh, in letters from the Birmingham jail
in 1963 was injustice anywhere
is a threat to justice everywhere.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
We are caught in an an inescapable network of mutuality tied in a single
garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all
indirectly. He wrote that in 1963. But it is as
relevant as important today if not more so because what we are
seeing is the spread starting with the president of the United States of injustice
using the justice department as his means of punishing people he
doesn't like a criminal investigation of the chairman of the Federal Reserve
Board because Donald Trump doesn't like what the Fed is doing,
sicking his ICE agents on the people of Minneapolis
and other cities because they're democratic cities
because he doesn't respect these people,
telling lies, causing even the people of Greenland
to be fearful, turning his back on the UN charter on
international law. Injustice
anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
You must fight back. We must fight back peacefully.
Martin Luther King did not use violence. In fact, it was civil disobedience. What
he showed America is that he and his followers and others
in the civil rights movement would be beaten
by Bull Connor. by the clan, the Kuclux Clan, by others
who were racists and nivists and haters.
But they would not fight back because they knew that fighting back would only
exacerbate and create more violence. They also knew
that showing America the face of racism, the face of bigotry
directly would ignite America against that
racism, against that bigotry.
Well, it is time again for civil disobedience
across this land. an upheaval that will enable Americans to know all
Americans, not just those who agree with us, not just progressives and Democrats,
but also independents and Republicans and even MAGA followers. Enable all of
us to see what we are up against and rebuke it and reject it
and understand that we are better than all of that.
Thank you. We'll see you
see you next week.
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