Trump and the Supreme Court Are Crushing Black Political Power
https://newrepublic.com/article/210165/trump-supreme-court-crushing-black-political-power
13K subscribers
Explore the podcast
70 episodes
Right Now With Perry Bacon
The New Republic
Transcript
Follow along using the transcript.
1 second
I'm
Perry Bacon. I'm the host of the New Republic show. Right now, I'm
joined by two great political scientists. Hakee Jefferson is at Stanford
University.10 seconds
Jake
Grimbeck is the University of California, Berkeley. Uh it's afternoon
for them just barely. They're on the West Coast. Um glad they're joining
us17 seconds
today.
And you know, these are two two people I really enjoy talking to, but
we're talking to them at a time that's not that great. you know,
literally25 seconds
about
an hour ago, um, Tennessee voted to sort of eliminate their majority
black uh, congressional district. You're seeing Alabama, South Carolina,
a bunch34 seconds
of
states, uh, talking about doing that after the Supreme Court ruling
last week further gutting almost, you know, invalidating the voting
rights act.42 seconds
We're
going to talk about the fallout from that and what it means for black
representation. So, thanks guys for joining me. Thanks for having here,
Perry.50 seconds
So,
Hakee, just talk about that first of all, like where we're talking, you
know, out of the gate, man. Out of the gate. Go ahead.57 seconds
The,
you know, watch, you know, I think the question I want to ask people is
I ask you all specifically is Al Roberts, the Supreme Court is1 minute, 5 seconds
basically saying that black people are Democrats. So, gerrymandering is is is about partisanship. And so, it's fine if1 minute, 14 seconds
we
get rid of all the black congressional districts because those are just
Democrats. And the Republicans won the majority in those states. they
get to draw the lines. So, why does it1 minute, 21 seconds
matter that black representation goes down in these states? I mean, uh, thanks again for having us,1 minute, 29 seconds
Perry.
I'm going to let Jake, cuz Jake had some insights that I thought were
just right on the money on the piece he uh wrote. So, I'll let Jake talk
about1 minute, 38 seconds
uh uh the the sort of foolishness of of the court's thinking when it comes to1 minute, 45 seconds
partisansship
and race given what we political scientists, I think, and a broad
public know about the overlapping nature uh of partisanship and and race1 minute, 54 seconds
in the US. So, I'm going to I'm going to let uh Jake set the groundwork for that.1 minute, 58 seconds
But at the top, uh, you know, the Voting Rights Act is perhaps the most effective, if not one of the most2 minutes, 6 seconds
effective pieces of legislation and the country's history, right? Like uh the the sort of post civil war amendments2 minutes, 15 seconds
were meant to uh enshrine these rights for black folk. But we know across the American South in particular, there were2 minutes, 22 seconds
these
attempts to burden the franchise for black people. the Voting Rights
Act comes along and helps to ensure that black people uh got to enjoy uh
access2 minutes, 32 seconds
to the ballot without the burdens that uh lots of local jurisdictions tried tried to uh put in front of them. And so2 minutes, 40 seconds
it just so happens I've been reading uh this work by by political scientist Katherine Tate uh and she early on uh2 minutes, 49 seconds
was thinking about what's the what's the reason that we might care uh about uh black political representation? What2 minutes, 57 seconds
does it what does it matter? Right? And so we have these expectations uh that that black representatives uh3 minutes, 6 seconds
who descriptively represent black constituents might have preferences uh might have priorities that differ from3 minutes, 14 seconds
their white counterparts. And so we might we might expect, for example, uh that if uh black representatives have3 minutes, 24 seconds
experiences,
life experiences uh that align with uh black constituents, they might
prioritize issues uh related to criminal justice,3 minutes, 35 seconds
right? Uh we might remember for example the leadership uh uh that many uh black representatives had in the aftermath uh3 minutes, 43 seconds
this so not long ago of Trayvon Martin's uh death uh at the hands of George Zimmerman. It was black representatives3 minutes, 50 seconds
who
really uh put out the clearing call about uh whether a young black man
wearing a hoodie should should confront death in the way that Trayvon
did. So,3 minutes, 59 seconds
we
might have expectations that black members of Congress are going to be
better advocates for issues like criminal justice or uh for various4 minutes, 9 seconds
redistributive programs. So, you see uh and and the Senate, for example, uh black women really holding uh uh uh4 minutes, 18 seconds
Secretary Kennedy's feet to the fire when it comes to access uh to vaccines or maternal health, black maternal4 minutes, 25 seconds
health. And so we might expect that descriptive representation comes with some substantive purchase, right? And so4 minutes, 33 seconds
the decline of black representation not only uh is a slap in the face to uh you know the the progress made uh for4 minutes, 41 seconds
multi-racial democracy, but we might worry that it will come uh with some substantive declines uh for issues that4 minutes, 50 seconds
black
folks uh care about and that matter to them uh materially. Let me
follow up on one question about so today the district that was
eliminated is in4 minutes, 58 seconds
the
Memphis area. The representative's name is Steve Cohen. He is not
black. So talk about that in that kind to help explain why that's a a
loss as well.5 minutes, 8 seconds
Yeah. So when when Congress passed the the Voting Rights Act and we talk about black folks having the right to select5 minutes, 16 seconds
representatives of their choice. uh that choice needn't be a descriptive uh5 minutes, 23 seconds
member of the group. It it doesn't mean uh that the it's often the case uh that5 minutes, 31 seconds
that
black folks who are voting for members of of Congress given residential
segregation and the like perhaps that uh choice would be a black
representative.5 minutes, 42 seconds
Uh but sometimes the choice is to have somebody who has uh substantive priorities and interests uh that are5 minutes, 50 seconds
aligned with theirs. And in the context of American politics, as I'm sure Jake's going to lay out even more eloquently,5 minutes, 57 seconds
in the context of American politics,5 minutes, 59 seconds
that means uh for many and most black folks having the opportunity uh to vote6 minutes, 6 seconds
for a Democratic politician and having uh substantive numbers such that uh their support for that candidate uh can6 minutes, 15 seconds
get them over uh the finish line. But I think it's a really good opportunity for Jake to lay out even more clearly the6 minutes, 23 seconds
way that partisanship and race are so intertwined and and American life. Go ahead.6 minutes, 31 seconds
No, great to be with you guys. Thanks Perry for organizing this conversation.6 minutes, 35 seconds
Um always great to be along with a friend and collaborator and uh unfortunately at a you know inferior6 minutes, 43 seconds
school slightly to myself Jefferson but otherwise excellent to see you. Um, and I think that's right. And like just to6 minutes, 50 seconds
continue on Steve Cohen in Tennessee as like a candidate of choice of a racial minority group that is central to Voting6 minutes, 57 seconds
Rights Act section two, which just got cut in Cala um by the Supreme Court. The idea of a candidate of choice, it can be7 minutes, 6 seconds
like a proxy like it's more likely to be a member of that racial minority group.7 minutes, 11 seconds
But
Steve Cohen is a longerving popular representative with a majority
black constituency. He's a central eastern European Jewish guy like in7 minutes, 19 seconds
ethnic background but he sounds like you should quickly YouTube. That's true. Yeah.7 minutes, 25 seconds
Yeah. That dude is like Memphis, you know, like you could be like oh yeah like 90 eightball and MJG and 36 Mafia7 minutes, 33 seconds
and Steve Cohen. It like actually he spent time around some black people. Totally.7 minutes, 38 seconds
Yeah. It's you. So he's a candidate of choice um in this way of the black uh community of the district. But taking a7 minutes, 46 seconds
step
back here, let's think about what the vote, you know, Hakeim uh said uh
spoke about the Voting Rights Act as one of the most effective pieces
of7 minutes, 53 seconds
legislation
in American history. It's also the culmination like Hakee mentioned,
it's the enforcement of the Reconstruction Amendments. Um after the8 minutes, 2 seconds
Civil
War, the 13th, 14th to 15th amendment, 13th amendment ban on slavery,
14th amendment equality under the law, which is really codified in the8 minutes, 10 seconds
Civil Rights Act of 1964. that that goes on and importantly birthright citizenship. Exact. And birthright citizenship.8 minutes, 18 seconds
Right.
So the 14th amendment says unlike the Dread Scott decision of the
Supreme Court before the Civil War that said black people can never be
citizens. This8 minutes, 27 seconds
says
you're a citizen when you're born in the US, you are a citizen.
Birthright citizenship and citizens and all people on US soil are
entitled to equality8 minutes, 36 seconds
under the law. Right to due process jury of your peers, right? you your people have to be able to serve on juries too.8 minutes, 43 seconds
Um that sort of equality under the law which was violated by Jim Crow eventually the Civil Rights Act of 19648 minutes, 50 seconds
ends
that. And the 15th Amendment is no ban on voting on the basis of race
or previous condition of servitude. Um and the Jim Crow voting laws
violated that.9 minutes, 3 seconds
And
there it wasn't until the 1965 Voting Rights Act, the crown jewel of
the Civil Rights Movement, actually enforces the 15th Amendment and to
some extent the 14th Amendment as well.9 minutes, 14 seconds
That said, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 has different sections. Section five of the Voting Rights Act was the9 minutes, 22 seconds
preclarance
section. said former Jim Crow areas, counties and states, if you're
going to change your voting laws or redistrict, you're going to have to9 minutes, 31 seconds
like
pass that through the US Justice Department. And at the time under
Obama when this is being litigated, it's Eric Holder as attorney general
get to say,9 minutes, 39 seconds
you know, you're thinking about changing your voting laws. Is this going to suppress votes? Is this some sort of,9 minutes, 45 seconds
you
know, small version of Jim Crow? You have to review this with us. The
Shelby County 2013 Supreme Court decision ends section five with a
similar logic. John9 minutes, 54 seconds
Roberts says like, you know, basically racism over section 5 is done. No more pre-clarance. We see a wave of uh10 minutes, 2 seconds
election
law changes by state legislators and the changing of sort of voting
procedures, purges of voter roles, the things you know as voter10 minutes, 11 seconds
suppression in the 2010s comes after the Shelby County decision. But then section two, what it says, section two is the10 minutes, 20 seconds
vote dilution provision that says uh that's mostly about redistricting and it's been uh uh sort of interpreted in10 minutes, 28 seconds
subsequent
judicial opinions. There's a standard and that standard is what we
talked about. So, it's that you racial groups and particularly racial10 minutes, 37 seconds
minority groups have the ability to select their candidates of choice and that they're not blocked from voting,10 minutes, 45 seconds
registering to vote, and then voting for those candidates of choice. And then the district system is not set up in a way10 minutes, 51 seconds
to constantly have a racial majority group, usually white people, but it depends on the place, block those10 minutes, 59 seconds
candidates
of choice through overwhelming voting against them, either at the
primary or general election such that those candidates of choice of the11 minutes, 7 seconds
racial minority group get to be in office. That is the standard of section two. The Supreme Court in Calala ended11 minutes, 14 seconds
that.
Now, what are what's the long-term ramifications of ending section two
here? And when we think about redistricting, well, partisan11 minutes, 24 seconds
gerrymandering,
that is a state legislature who controls districtricting. This is very
unique in the US system. State governments draw11 minutes, 31 seconds
districts and determine voting laws for the most part within the, you know,11 minutes, 35 seconds
within the Voting Rights Act, whatever the Supreme Court says is allowed of something like the Voting Rights Act,11 minutes, 40 seconds
which
is congressional legislation in the Constitution. So, that's unique
around the world. It's usually the national government that regulates
voting in elections and districtricting,11 minutes, 49 seconds
right? Not states, but states do it.11 minutes, 51 seconds
It's partisan gerrymandering has long been legal. You can actually say we are setting up this map to maximize the11 minutes, 59 seconds
seats from for my party and minimize the seats of the other party. The only thing you couldn't do is racially gerrymander.12 minutes, 7 seconds
If in that partisan map, racial minority groups that votes co that are a coherent community, they vote cohesively for12 minutes, 14 seconds
candidates of choice, they repeatedly choose candidates that they support in majorities, right?12 minutes, 22 seconds
Those candidates have to be able to take office. So you can only partisan gerrymander so much is the point. The12 minutes, 30 seconds
racial voting rights act section two blocks like the extent to which you can jerrymand her by saying no black,12 minutes, 37 seconds
Latino, Asian-American, native Americans in cohesive communities have to be able to elect their candidates of choice.12 minutes, 43 seconds
With that falling away, what we now have is in especially the US South is that you can fully do Republican12 minutes, 52 seconds
gerrymanders
without having to think about the many hundreds of thousands and
millions of black voters electing their candidates of choice. This
allows more12 minutes, 59 seconds
extreme Republican gerrymanders and it's going to allow more extreme Democratic gerrymanders in blue states. So that's13 minutes, 7 seconds
the outcome. And the biggest casualty is black representation. For the parties, it's going to mildly help Republicans,13 minutes, 14 seconds
but
Democrats can gerrymander more effectively too now. So it'll even out a
little. The big casualty is black representation. to some extent Latino13 minutes, 23 seconds
representation in other parts of the country but mostly black representation in the south is the casualty here for the long term13 minutes, 30 seconds
there's
going to be many more effects of this the blue state part I don't think
I fully explain the blue states could reduce black roation I don't
think I13 minutes, 38 seconds
fully
Is that what you're saying explain that a little bit yeah so in blue
states uh you know there's less racially polarized voting13 minutes, 47 seconds
because uh the racial groups tend to vote more similarly There's still racial differences in voting in blue states,13 minutes, 53 seconds
but
in a state like Illinois, black and white libs, they vote more a bit
more consistently. There's still big differences, like Hakee said,
different14 minutes, 2 seconds
priorities, but it's not as different as you go to a deep south state, it'll be 90% of white people vote one way, 90% of14 minutes, 10 seconds
black
people vote another way. in a state like Illinois or California or mass
black people in Martha's Vinnie like that is not how racial voting
works14 minutes, 19 seconds
in the northeast or west coast or Midwest like that's not how Detroit looks like Atlanta even in the south14 minutes, 25 seconds
like urban white people in Atlanta are not voting 90% against the black people and black people are not voting 90%14 minutes, 32 seconds
against
those white what I mean there is uh if you wanted to maximize the
number of blue seats in a state what you want to do is get every state
to have 50 1%14 minutes, 46 seconds
blue voters and make the Republican voters like have no ability to set seats. What that does14 minutes, 53 seconds
is that does chop up cohesive racial groups more than otherwise would. So, I would say it's not going to be a it's15 minutes, 2 seconds
nothing like as significant as the hit to black representation in the south,15 minutes, 5 seconds
but we will see a little bit of an increased ability and we'll see how Democrats play this and how the maps end15 minutes, 12 seconds
up. But the idea that now you don't have to worry about, you know, racial minority groups just opens up the types15 minutes, 19 seconds
of maps you can draw on for the basis of partisan goals.15 minutes, 24 seconds
So they're the the Supreme Court is ignoring race or or prioritizing15 minutes, 31 seconds
partisanship
or like I guess do you view them? Yeah, I guess this question is like
are they pretending race doesn't exist or are they saying party is the
thing that divides us today?15 minutes, 41 seconds
That's right. So Hakeen sort of alluded to this. So, a big part of the logic of the ruling is they're saying now to15 minutes, 50 seconds
prove
vote dilution under the Voting Rights Act, it's now going to be a
really near impossible standard. You're going to have to say in places
where it's just Democrats or just Republicans,16 minutes, 2 seconds
we
have to find that the white and black people and Latinos and
Asian-Americans and Native Americans vote systematically differently,16 minutes, 9 seconds
right? including in general elections like in the south you know that's basically saying like you have to hold16 minutes, 16 seconds
constant or control for party and find racial differences systematic racial differences in voting even within the16 minutes, 25 seconds
same party in places that are very polarized by party also and by race like in the deep south that's basically going16 minutes, 33 seconds
to say like you found the two white libs in the deep south some county that tend to vote with the black people in a16 minutes, 40 seconds
Democratic primary and because they're kind of voting with the black people that's like we have to ignore all the16 minutes, 48 seconds
90%
of white people voting against the black candidates because they're
from a different party. The logic is is is wacky, but you can see where
it comes16 minutes, 56 seconds
from. Their theory is that like somebody votes on the basis of race or on the17 minutes, 3 seconds
basis of party, right? and that historically like there are partisan forces and there17 minutes, 10 seconds
are racial forces but this is a like pretty common misconception. So in people's own development of their own17 minutes, 18 seconds
politics
like when you were growing up like I'll ask you guys when you were
growing up and coming of age politically and deciding which party do you
like17 minutes, 26 seconds
think
represents you more which party do you take like maybe there's a lower
level office you don't really know what the controller does but you see a
D or R next to their name.17 minutes, 35 seconds
How
did in adolescence you come to think of like which party represents you
better? It has something to do with race, civil rights, legacies of the17 minutes, 44 seconds
parties representing different racial groups. Race and party are not this separate thing. Race drives how the17 minutes, 51 seconds
parties organize themselves and how people identify with the parties. So it's not a control for party story. It's18 minutes
actually that party is a mediator or an intermediate step.18 minutes, 8 seconds
Right? For that reason, this control for party thing, sadly when I like other18 minutes, 15 seconds
political scientists have really, you know, played into that, that is a fundamentally uh uh you know,18 minutes, 24 seconds
problematic and uh uh just facious way to think of the process of partisanship18 minutes, 31 seconds
and race throughout history or within individual decision. We and we I mean we see it in all the structural ways that18 minutes, 38 seconds
Jake has Jake has laid out in in terms of vote choice, but we also see it when we when we try to explain18 minutes, 46 seconds
uh
party ID. So, I'm just thinking here if you were to run uh, you know,
some attitudinal models and you're just trying to explain variation, you
know,18 minutes, 56 seconds
and and black partisanship or white partisanship on either side, you're going to see relationships between that19 minutes, 4 seconds
partisan
outcome and racial attitude. So in the case of in the case of white
Americans for example, imperfect though it may be uh one of the things
that will19 minutes, 14 seconds
consistently help you explain uh uh white support say for the Republican party or for the Democratic19 minutes, 21 seconds
party is what they think about black people. Uh and so what what we scholars call their their racial resentment19 minutes, 28 seconds
attitudes.
And on on on the side of of black folks, one of the consistent
predictors of of black support for the Democratic party is identity
centrality.19 minutes, 39 seconds
That is how important is being black to their identity. Uh, and it just provides some empirical support for this point19 minutes, 46 seconds
that that that Jake was making, which is that when black people think about uh,19 minutes, 53 seconds
you know, people people sometimes try to try to oversimplify black support for the Democratic Party as though black20 minutes
folks aren't making a real calculated choice here. Uh, of course, between two imperfect options. But when when when20 minutes, 10 seconds
many black folks think about uh their support for the Democratic party, uh it is because they perceive20 minutes, 18 seconds
that though imperfect, uh it is the party that most advances black interest,20 minutes, 26 seconds
uh now we've seen declines uh and and the level of black support uh for the20 minutes, 34 seconds
Democratic party. Uh but these black folks still aren't overwhelmingly running uh to identify as Republicans.20 minutes, 41 seconds
If anything, they're putting the Democratic party ID on ice. Uh in part because many of them uh perhaps20 minutes, 49 seconds
especially uh some young people are concerned that the party is not advancing uh black interest. So, it's20 minutes, 56 seconds
just to say that uh we can't think about uh partisan choice uh or outcomes21 minutes, 4 seconds
related to partisan choice without thinking about race. Even as the Supreme Court and all of its uh decisions these21 minutes, 12 seconds
days wants to convince us uh that race doesn't matter. Uh all of the sort of uh21 minutes, 19 seconds
survey evidence and the like that we have would suggest otherwise. It's worth saying.21 minutes, 25 seconds
Yeah. Good. I was just going to say that like in the Trump era like it's not like it wasn't surprising that Trump too got21 minutes, 33 seconds
more Latino voting, got maybe 45% of the Latino vote. It's not not surprising that black support uh for the Democratic21 minutes, 42 seconds
party in 2024 is like at 90% whereas for Obama it was in the mid 90s. You know,21 minutes, 47 seconds
there are some fluctuations and we it's not un like it is interesting that like white support for Trump is at 60%21 minutes, 54 seconds
whereas like for at in some elections white people supported Republicans at the high 60%. But think about a 60/4022 minutes, 2 seconds
election.
If a president won 6040 there you'd be like that's the landslide of the
century like you know a 20% gap you know and we're22 minutes, 11 seconds
saying it's so der like there's first like the levels of actual racial sorting in the electorate are like just actually22 minutes, 19 seconds
high
in raw terms like even though it's interesting that the presidential
candidate who said Mexicans aren't bringing their best and criminals and22 minutes, 27 seconds
rapists got you know a solid you know 45%22 minutes, 32 seconds
% uh of the Latino vote is very important to understand. At the same time, 55 to 45 is a big gap. You know,22 minutes, 41 seconds
it's
still a very racially sorted electorate. And furthermore, what Hakee
said that's so on point is even if there was a little bit of
dracialization in22 minutes, 49 seconds
the electorate with, you know, racial groups not being quite as sorted into the parties as before, you know, it's22 minutes, 56 seconds
still very sorted. Racial attitudes are more predictive now than ever. So,23 minutes, 2 seconds
Latinos
who voted for the Republican party recently tend to be the racially
conservative Latinos. The most predictive thing for naturalized
immigrants,23 minutes, 11 seconds
immigrants that became US citizens and now vote. The most like predictive survey questions is the racial23 minutes, 19 seconds
resentment index saying, "Hello, new Asian-American voter, naturalized Latino American. What is the most predictive23 minutes, 27 seconds
attitude?"
It's do you think black people are poorer than white people because
they're lazier and don't work as hard or because of discrimination. Your23 minutes, 35 seconds
answer
to that question is the most correlated with your vote choice. So
racial attitudes are more related to vote choice even as23 minutes, 45 seconds
groups
change. And when people like are shocked by that and saying how but
more Latinos voted Republican in 2024 than before so it's not about
race. I'm like,23 minutes, 54 seconds
you
haven't met a lot of people of color if you never heard people of color
say other people of color are lazy. Like, especially a different group
of color.24 minutes, 2 seconds
Like, I'm like,24 minutes, 3 seconds
that
is I'm like, you've never been in the barber shop. You have ne like
that is just so central to how people organize their thoughts about
society.24 minutes, 12 seconds
Like, even people of color. So looking forward, I I think I want to sort of drill down a little bit in the sense24 minutes, 19 seconds
that it is pro is likely the case that we'll have a house majority that the Democrats control in in November. We'll24 minutes, 28 seconds
also have Tennessee have zero black representatives. South Carolina maybe have zero. Alabama be down to one.24 minutes, 36 seconds
Louisiana
two. So what does it look like? Because on some level it's better for
Democrat better for black people or black people support a Democratic24 minutes, 43 seconds
council. Let's put it that way. Um, on the other hand, black reposition will go down. So, I talk about that that effect.24 minutes, 49 seconds
It's
like if we have a Democratic Congress, controlled Congress that has
fewer black members, no James Cabernet leadership, but it's still the24 minutes, 58 seconds
Democratic
B Democratic majority Congress. What is that? How's it different than
it is if a majority would have been of the preva with the section five
in line? So,25 minutes, 8 seconds
yeah.
I mean, one of the things that we know from the descriptive
representation literature, and again, not to hawk the book again, but
I've been reading it, so25 minutes, 17 seconds
stop in mind, but uh it's a little dated now, and I don't have uh I don't have evidence uh from more recent years about25 minutes, 25 seconds
this.
But one of the things that Tate observes in this work, uh Black Faces
in the Mirror, which is I mean, talk about relevant. It's about black25 minutes, 33 seconds
representation. One of the things that she observes in the second part of the book where she's thinking about uh black25 minutes, 40 seconds
evaluations of of of Congress is that black people have slightly more25 minutes, 49 seconds
positive views uh when they're represented by by black electeds. And again, uh I want to c that by saying I25 minutes, 57 seconds
don't
know if this uh holds up in the contemporary era, but I mean I think
that's the we know this from the descriptive representation literature
is26 minutes, 5 seconds
that people uh perceive institutions as more legitimate, as fairer, as more26 minutes, 15 seconds
likely to give them outcomes that uh they desire uh when uh they have26 minutes, 21 seconds
descriptive representatives. Now, I I I do want to do want to caution uh and I know this is a group of us who who like26 minutes, 30 seconds
some complexity and nuance that descriptive representation isn't the end all be all of of of what people need,26 minutes, 39 seconds
right? Like uh it is not the case that mere descriptive representation uh gives good material outcomes. You26 minutes, 48 seconds
know, I live in Palo Alto, not too far from San Francisco, uh with a with a district attorney who uh is a black26 minutes, 57 seconds
woman who very proudly supports uh you know uh tough on crime policies and the like. Uh, but I think what we will27 minutes, 5 seconds
observe is a continued decline in black people's perception of the legitimacy of27 minutes, 13 seconds
political institutions uh namely uh the Congress in this case uh as their representation uh declines27 minutes, 21 seconds
and and I think at some level we'll observe this and the kind of uh levels of advocacy uh we observe and27 minutes, 30 seconds
I want you to ask is your family in the uh Clabber district. Uh yes. Uh yeah. Yeah.27 minutes, 38 seconds
Down
specifically like is what does that look like when the when the whether
you like Clbert or not, he is a black voice for that community. What do
you think?27 minutes, 47 seconds
How
do you think that what do you think this the impact of that is itself
because he he's likely to lose potentially his seat is gone as well
potentially.27 minutes, 53 seconds
Yeah. You know, uh I have so many so many memories of of of Jim Klyber being very present. his uh his his28 minutes, 2 seconds
sister-in-law for a small time was my piano teacher. I quit piano though. Uh he was recently on campus and he and I28 minutes, 9 seconds
took a photograph together. Uh and and and I mean, you know, uh the way that28 minutes, 16 seconds
this stuff works on the ground is people just sort of know know the guy. I mean,28 minutes, 21 seconds
you know, uh I don't think that people are following uh all the sort of minations of what28 minutes, 29 seconds
he's up to. But they perceive, and I think they're right about it, that they've got a powerful28 minutes, 37 seconds
uh representative who has a draw that is familiar to them, who uh just by by28 minutes, 46 seconds
sense of his similarity, has their interest at heart. Uh and I think we28 minutes, 52 seconds
forget that, you know, people contact their members of Congress for any number of things. and the perception29 minutes, 1 second
uh that that one can be in touch that one can one can reach out when they're struggling with the sort of ordinary29 minutes, 10 seconds
stuff of life. uh I don't know that we have great evidence of this empirically but uh you might expect that that29 minutes, 20 seconds
declines when the person is different from you even if that person has29 minutes, 26 seconds
otherwise similar uh similar preferences symbolic representation29 minutes, 34 seconds
uh
and descriptive representation uh we shouldn't put all of our weight on
it but we know uh the the way that people think about their
citizenship,29 minutes, 44 seconds
the way that people think about their place and broader polity is in part uh a29 minutes, 52 seconds
function of how much they see themselves uh represented in the sort of governing bodies of society. And so I think, you30 minutes, 1 second
know, uh, a Congress that has fewer black representatives, fewer people who look like Jasmine Crockett or Jim30 minutes, 10 seconds
Clyburn, and the list goes on, is a Congress that will have an even tougher time uh, convincing black folks that30 minutes, 19 seconds
it's a legitimate political institution uh, that is advancing uh, democratic goals,30 minutes, 26 seconds
the democratic goals. So, we're in like uh gerrymandering season right now. Jake, are you back? So, I'm backish.30 minutes, 34 seconds
And I want to talk about black representation on Hakeem's last answer. Um, say it again.30 minutes, 39 seconds
Sorry, my my iPhone overheated, but I would love to jump in on black representation.30 minutes, 44 seconds
Sounds good. Then we'll move on to something else. But yeah, sounds good.30 minutes, 46 seconds
Go
ahead. Yeah. Um, no. I just wanted to say so when we think about the
Congressional Black Caucus and black representation in Congress right
now, we30 minutes, 55 seconds
have to think about the triumphs and the serious limitations. So the triumphs first when I think about,31 minutes, 1 second
you
know, so on my mom's side of the family, so my grandfather was the head
of the Chicago Defender, like the the pre-minent black newspaper in the31 minutes, 8 seconds
midentury. Getting Thood Marshall onto the Supreme Court under LBJ was the triumph of his life. like that reporting31 minutes, 16 seconds
on
it and being like a hackounding LBJ and the Democratic party through
the black press to get third good Marshall on the court, you know, was
everything.31 minutes, 25 seconds
Um and then black congressional representation represented the end of American authoritarianism and apartheid31 minutes, 33 seconds
in the south to have majority black area states that are 30 40 and above percent black31 minutes, 40 seconds
get their first black representation since reconstruction right like sensed the northern like union military under Lincoln and31 minutes, 49 seconds
occupied the south and said you have to allow black voting for those 12 years.31 minutes, 54 seconds
This is a triumph like and still to this day my that generation in my family is very interested in descriptive32 minutes, 1 second
representation very and it is a triumph they remember the days before that where you know that's when things like32 minutes, 10 seconds
even Bill Clinton 1992 going on areno is a big deal like in terms of like it was so new32 minutes, 18 seconds
to be represented as your whole person in that way um culturally linguistically the idea that black people are human32 minutes, 26 seconds
beings
too and deserve represent like this was so basic such a triumph and
then I got to say the limitations though so we say we see32 minutes, 34 seconds
uh like Hakee said it's descriptive represent representation is not a perfect predictor Clarence Thomas was a key figure behind32 minutes, 44 seconds
the
roll back of roll back of black representation period so that's the
first is it's not a perfect predictor it's actually quite imperfect
predictor32 minutes, 52 seconds
and
the Republican party has changed a lot where they know this and they've
run increasing number of MAGA black candidates that black people do not
vote33 minutes
for but it scramles the brains of descriptive representation differently.33 minutes, 4 seconds
Second, young black Americans are not as interested in black representation.33 minutes, 9 seconds
They're
not as interested in descriptive representation as the boomer and Gen X
generations were and beyond that the silent generation and returning
vet33 minutes, 17 seconds
black
veterans and so forth. And that's in part because they see the parity
in representation. Now, black representation in Congress is proportional
to the black population.33 minutes, 28 seconds
It's a triumph, but it has not delivered material equality. The the racial wealth gap is greater than it's been in33 minutes, 37 seconds
century. You know, this is uh uh the the procarity of the black middle class,33 minutes, 44 seconds
the fact that the 2008 financial crisis destroyed half of black family wealth.33 minutes, 48 seconds
uh things like war and imperialism that young black Americans see and they see a similar logic of racial hierarchy and33 minutes, 56 seconds
imperialism and colonialism around the world. Like these are things that this is a reason why age polarization in34 minutes, 3 seconds
Democratic
party primaries is big among black voters. Black young black voters and
older black voters vote very differently in Democratic party primaries.
We need to listen to these34 minutes, 12 seconds
young
black people who are very central in Black Lives Matter and had a
different orientation. It's like a different wave of black politics.
That's34 minutes, 20 seconds
the second thing. The third thing is we have to be real about this. The Congressional Black Caucus,34 minutes, 26 seconds
black representative in Congress are 10 of the 15 oldest members of Congress and have very serious health issues and34 minutes, 34 seconds
they
do not have successors. Even if the Voting Rights Act section 2 stayed
and they had these black districts, like these many of these members of
Congress,34 minutes, 43 seconds
like I don't know what happened. They There is not a generation lying in weight that they have cultivated and34 minutes, 51 seconds
it's in some cases become a very personalistic film in a safe district that is not34 minutes, 58 seconds
always aligned with the interest of the black community more broadly. Um and uh black Americans are the most let this35 minutes, 6 seconds
you'll get this twisted because people try to do this like bait and switch in punditry. They'll say white liberals,35 minutes, 14 seconds
self-described liberals or white Democrats are sometimes to the left on some policy issues of black Americans,35 minutes, 21 seconds
but
they do this. It's only if you subset white people to like if you pull
off the leftmost white people, they are like somehow to the left of all
black35 minutes, 29 seconds
people
on average. And it's like no, but if you actually look at racial groups
in the US, black people are the leftmost on every issue.35 minutes, 36 seconds
Criminal
justice on downward. And we have to remember this. Paul Fimer's book on
holy alliances was about black people because of this are a captured35 minutes, 44 seconds
constituency in the Democratic party and it that's why swing voters are doubly valuable in these states but a black35 minutes, 53 seconds
voter who's their choice is Democratic party or bust is not a credible threat to the party in the same way and just36 minutes
saying here this is a thing where we actually have to demand the most from black representatives and not give them36 minutes, 7 seconds
a
pass because of descriptive representation and this is a moment where
with gerontocracy and with aging leadership and a new authoritarian36 minutes, 16 seconds
moment we have to ask these representatives to really step up.36 minutes, 19 seconds
Okay, so let me switch let me switch to move move. Um so we've had we're in like a gerrymandering festival right now36 minutes, 27 seconds
where Virginia moved to make eight eight of their nine districts Democratic even though that's a closely divided state. I36 minutes, 34 seconds
think Florida is going to be 24 to four and now Tennessee will be 8 to zero or nine to zero. I forgotten which one. Are36 minutes, 41 seconds
we saying that a gerrymandered state that is Democratic Democrat a jerry that36 minutes, 49 seconds
are Republican? Are we saying that the what happened in Tennessee is different than Florida or Virginia because they're36 minutes, 56 seconds
killing
off black districts specifically and targeting that? Is that
qualitatively different for you all than what's happening in37 minutes, 3 seconds
they might jerrymand like Montana or not a if they jerrymanded an all-white Republican state or a Democratic state.37 minutes, 9 seconds
Is this is this is this fundamentally different because of the majority black districts in the history we're talking about?37 minutes, 15 seconds
I
think this is more in Jake's wheelhouse. But I'll just say this quickly
that we signed on now what feels like a long time ago uh public
letters.37 minutes, 24 seconds
In fact, we led public letters in support of legislation uh that was that would just uh weaken37 minutes, 33 seconds
this ability to do this kind of gerrymandering period. I mean, I think no one thinks that this is good for37 minutes, 41 seconds
democracy uh to have this kind of uh you know uh gerrymandering happening whether it's37 minutes, 49 seconds
happening from Democrats or whether it's happening from Republicans. So, I just want to put it on the record that uh my37 minutes, 56 seconds
own
politics and if I recall because Jake signed on and helped to lead the
lead the letter writing campaign to convince Democrats uh to advance
this38 minutes, 5 seconds
legislation uh that I Perry I I think that we're in a we're in a bad equilibrium uh for democracy. I mean38 minutes, 13 seconds
this
kind of tit for tat what game theorists would have expected uh I'll
just put on the table I don't think that the argument is that any form
of this is38 minutes, 22 seconds
good for democracy uh but I'll let Jake take the particular particulars of the question no that's right on we so HR1 that big38 minutes, 31 seconds
democracy reform in the democratic congress the post AOC squad election 2018 comes in38 minutes, 38 seconds
their first piece of legislation HR1 that's why it's called house resolution one uh was in, you know, a democracy38 minutes, 46 seconds
reform, so the John Lewis Voting Rights Act stuff and stopping voter suppression and and more resources for election38 minutes, 54 seconds
security and blah blah blah. And also a ban on partisan gerrymandering because Congress can just say no state no state39 minutes
can ban uh or no state can just draw districts in a partisan way. It has to be fair to voters of both parties.39 minutes, 7 seconds
That's obviously good. But without that, you don't want one-sided warfare, right?39 minutes, 13 seconds
Like
an arms race where both sides are doing it gives an incentive for both
both sides to say, "Let's both stop this with new rules on both of us."
So, still39 minutes, 23 seconds
support that that's coming back into the agenda. Um, at the same time, I will say yes, there's something different.39 minutes, 30 seconds
Historically, partisan gerrymandering is incredibly consequential. some post DOS decision that allowed states to ban39 minutes, 37 seconds
abortion. Those abortion bans in some states are only sustainable because partisan gerrymandering gives a minority39 minutes, 44 seconds
of
voters, typically in more rural areas, the ability to set the majority
of the state legislature over the will of a pro-choice majority of
voters in39 minutes, 54 seconds
order
to ban abortion. That's an example of the consequentiality of partisan
gerrymandering. It makes policy in the state more out of step with the
wills of40 minutes, 2 seconds
the majority. Very important. At the same time, there is something given the long struggle over American democracy40 minutes, 12 seconds
has been centrally about black representation and voting rights. Um that black Americans have been the40 minutes, 19 seconds
vanguard. like any push for democracy in the US has been the vanguard has been a black democracy movement that has40 minutes, 27 seconds
provided
the voting rights act section too benefits all types of groups right
just like the civil rights act benefits white women and all types of
things like40 minutes, 34 seconds
that like black American movements on this and black Americans if you survey Americans the only constituency who40 minutes, 43 seconds
place a priority over things like voting rights and the rules of the game of democracy as an issue in and of itself40 minutes, 49 seconds
not just to get better gas prices and stuff. It's black Americans. So, uh there is something really special and40 minutes, 57 seconds
really consequential about ending that voting rights act uh triumph of black representation that paid off to uh this41 minutes, 6 seconds
is no ordinary love shade day was like a you know basically these black movements were really about you know it's not an41 minutes, 14 seconds
ordinary
movement. It's actually a movement that translates into gains in
democracy and equality for everyone. And that's a kind of unique thing
in world41 minutes, 23 seconds
history.
And that's why every movement around the world emulates the black
American civil rights movement of the mid 20th century.41 minutes, 30 seconds
Yeah. I I just want to say very quickly as Jake was talking, I was thinking about a conversation that uh Jake and I41 minutes, 37 seconds
had just this past Friday uh uh in person where it was thinking about, you know, just the the magnitude of the41 minutes, 46 seconds
efforts uh to undermine uh and to walk back this kind of41 minutes, 54 seconds
progress that we know uh is targeted uh at weakening black political power.42 minutes, 3 seconds
And you know, we are in an industry and a discipline uh that at times has seemed to lose42 minutes, 10 seconds
focus on on that as the objective. And so, you know, our our discipline is42 minutes, 17 seconds
often of political scientists have often, you know, fallen prey to these arguments about, you know, well, does42 minutes, 25 seconds
voter ID do this thing? Does it affect turnout or that thing? and and the the bigger goal has always been to undermine42 minutes, 34 seconds
black political power. And we of course we hear some scholars often scholars of color and black scholars in particular42 minutes, 43 seconds
uh using that language to describe these efforts small though they sometimes seem uh these efforts. But I I I think what42 minutes, 52 seconds
this moment really, you know, forces me to think about is how to talk about what it is we're43 minutes
observing. And I think Jake is exactly right. Like this is such a clear attempt43 minutes, 8 seconds
to undermine black political power. And we think about it that way, right?43 minutes, 14 seconds
uh asking does the voter does the does voter ID law impact uh turnout? It just43 minutes, 22 seconds
seems like the wrong question cuz it's like the attempt uh to suppress black turnout in the first place is part of a43 minutes, 31 seconds
larger package of a longstanding attempt to undermine black political power. And so if anything, I hope the moment gives43 minutes, 40 seconds
to scholars and practitioners a different vocabulary or maybe an old vocabulary to describe what these folks43 minutes, 47 seconds
are up to. Let me close uh with this subject is that you all both talked about this idea of black political power43 minutes, 53 seconds
and we are watching a Supreme Court a administration and really we've had like five year but I guess the question I'm44 minutes, 2 seconds
getting at is it's not that I don't view that as a partisan project at this point if only because I watched so many44 minutes, 9 seconds
universities
eagerly you know kill off any diversity initiatives they had and they
seem like they almost wanted to on some level. I watched how many, you44 minutes, 17 seconds
know, liberal columnists were e eager to attack Ibram Kiy, you know, you know, and sort of pile on. So, in some ways,44 minutes, 23 seconds
like if you all are saying we're in a we're seeing black political power, a a push back against black political power,44 minutes, 31 seconds
isn't
that one going to win because it includes white Democrats and all white
Republicans and most white Democrats? I mean, or a lot of white
Democrats. I'm44 minutes, 39 seconds
concerned that all racial conscious policy is being eliminated and I don't see that ending because it seems like44 minutes, 47 seconds
that is supported by all Republicans and many Democrats. I think we're in a long winter. I mean,44 minutes, 55 seconds
I I think this is a long winter of racial backlash at all levels across any45 minutes, 4 seconds
number of institutions. Uh and and Perry, I think you're right to put your finger on it that yeah, you see a lot of45 minutes, 13 seconds
white liberals who might push back against the most egregious forms of this45 minutes, 20 seconds
racial backlash, but we should be attentive to the places uh of agreement45 minutes, 27 seconds
uh between otherwise uh liberal white people and white conservatives when it comes to race. So often in the language45 minutes, 36 seconds
of of racial preference or racial advantage or the perception or the45 minutes, 43 seconds
perception that uh that that black folk and other racial minorities are getting the goods that they should get. I think45 minutes, 52 seconds
what it demonstrates is what black people and people of color uh broadly sort of know, if only by way46 minutes, 1 second
of experience, which is that race is one of these peculiar areas46 minutes, 10 seconds
where things like liberalism can fall to the wayside. And it does mean it does mean that you got this sort of weird46 minutes, 19 seconds
coalition of folks who are at least on the fence about how explicit46 minutes, 28 seconds
uh the remedies for racial oppression ought to be. And that does make me nervous. I mean, you know, uh I think if46 minutes, 37 seconds
we were to if we were to advance legislation in the Congress,46 minutes, 43 seconds
most white Democrats would support legislation uh that protected uh black civil rights46 minutes, 51 seconds
and black voting rights. But I think it is telling that among the white public race is this area uh where you see uh47 minutes
some degrees of compromise uh that might worry us.47 minutes, 6 seconds
I would say, you know, thinking about the ups and downs in history of this,47 minutes, 13 seconds
including since the voting rights act is very instructive and the civil rights act where in the 70s we know the stories47 minutes, 20 seconds
of the attempt to actually integrate schools, including in the north um through that implementation was47 minutes, 27 seconds
different than just the civil rights act in theory, black people can join the schools,47 minutes, 33 seconds
right? That's one. Then we had actual affirmative action and affirmative action debates including quotas and like47 minutes, 41 seconds
actual saved specic parking spots but four black people or four women you know or four Native47 minutes, 50 seconds
American
individual like that was battled over. Then it wasn't quotas that was
ruled unconstitutional. Then it became about can you have take into47 minutes, 59 seconds
account
things like racial experiment experience and things like that identity
based experience and uh setting you know getting into schools48 minutes, 8 seconds
or
jobs or things like that or preferential contracting uh in public
contracts all of these things have been battled over. The thing48 minutes, 16 seconds
that
I think we mis mistook is that there's some things that won't backslide
that far, right? Yeah, sure. Affirmative action can try that that'll
fall back48 minutes, 25 seconds
that whatever the basics of the voting rights act, especially section two, was not something I had on my bingo card,48 minutes, 32 seconds
whereas we had seen a lot of backlashes to uh the equivalent of much more like materially substantive DEI essentially48 minutes, 40 seconds
like
real affirmative action. So what I'm saying in this racial backlash
that we're in the sort of anti-wokeness and all this you know stuff
within firms48 minutes, 49 seconds
within law schools and every you know all types of institutions yes the first thing is that that was like48 minutes, 58 seconds
you know whether racial progress in 2020 is rolled back like that's one thing and I think that's a big thing. Yes.49 minutes, 5 seconds
We didn't know or I didn't think it would backslide this far. Yeah, I was about to say who's included in this we I49 minutes, 12 seconds
mean are those things related though?49 minutes, 17 seconds
Yes.
Yes. I mean this is once you have it's clear that you can break like
once I mean isn't John Roberts and Alita like oh good since white
liberals no longer49 minutes, 25 seconds
care
about diversity anyway we can go a little further. I mean I know they
want to strike the voting rights down their entire lives. They're not
denying that.49 minutes, 34 seconds
I I will say but but Jake you know no Jake Jake one second. One second. Yeah, because you know Jake and I agree on about 98% of49 minutes, 42 seconds
everything. So, you know, we need a little bit of friction here. And so,49 minutes, 46 seconds
I'll I'll I'll jin up some friction only to say uh uh only to say only to say that this49 minutes, 53 seconds
is the natural this is the natural logical instate. I mean, all of this is50 minutes
about power, which I know uh my brother Jake understands. The the the the DEI walkbacks, the fights over all this50 minutes, 9 seconds
stuff and places like uh the ones we inhabit, universities,50 minutes, 14 seconds
uh
uh the the fight over the 1619 project. I'm not saying anything that
Jake doesn't already know, but all of those fights sometimes, as silly,
CRT,50 minutes, 22 seconds
as silly as they appear,50 minutes, 25 seconds
they're about discursive power. They're about social power. They're about the power and the boardrooms, all I mean,50 minutes, 33 seconds
and and the Voting Rights Act is the like are just about a different domain of power. But for me the the through50 minutes, 42 seconds
line is that this is always a question of who gets to wield power in the given50 minutes, 50 seconds
domain. And so when we see all these white folk, you know, including some uh white liberals, uh uh saying that, yeah,51 minutes
get
rid of get rid of all this talk about diversity and and all this stuff
about black people and all this, you know, uh it's a logical next step
that51 minutes, 10 seconds
they are not as on board as we might want them to be with the ascension of black political power. And there's51 minutes, 18 seconds
nothing that enshrines the right of black people to wield political power in this country more than the Voting Rights51 minutes, 27 seconds
Act.
And so this is just a natural instate of this hellscape of of of trying
to advance white political power at the expense of black political
power.51 minutes, 39 seconds
That was my jinning up a fight with with my brother Jay, who agrees with everything I just said. Of course.51 minutes, 46 seconds
I Yeah, I would say to this like I like I like that take. I think one is to you51 minutes, 55 seconds
know I do think in wolf 2.0 know like a couple advancements are one understanding that people of color like52 minutes, 3 seconds
I
think you know this is a conversation we've also had hakee you can
define like you know sort of white politics as including of non-white
people too like52 minutes, 11 seconds
in this way that's a uh one way to square that circle um in that you know like I do think it's52 minutes, 18 seconds
worth
thinking about that and I also think in this like white li like in my
travels around the country I've started to notice we all know that like
the52 minutes, 26 seconds
white liberal in I think your painting is the one that symbolically went was kind of supportive of some stuff that's convenient,52 minutes, 34 seconds
you know, doesn't actually want any material changes to anything.52 minutes, 38 seconds
Yes.
you know, and has a signaling sort of thing and a sign of like in this
house blah blah blah, but doesn't actually want to live next to black52 minutes, 46 seconds
people,
doesn't want to have their kids go to school, black people, doesn't
want to do all like I also think when we think this through that has
taken over where I've seen52 minutes, 54 seconds
actually
somewhat like when you go to different parts of the country, those
places that are much more racially sorted like I talked about than these
blue areas where our viewers and listeners tend to be in metro areas.53 minutes, 5 seconds
When
you get outside there, I saw what it was like when you go to places in
the deep south where if it's not MAGA and it's political, it's all black53 minutes, 13 seconds
people
and you see a white person some like that white person is in a
different place. Like it's so it's just really interesting and I think
I've come to more recently think how different it is.53 minutes, 24 seconds
I'm you know from the Bay and live in the Bay Area. um and how different that politics is where it's like no white53 minutes, 31 seconds
politics is very clear in those areas and like you're betraying white politics by you know going there in a way in53 minutes, 39 seconds
these
sort of liberal metros it's not the same so it's just a broader context
of where we're at now I think that's right Jake yeah53 minutes, 47 seconds
I and build in these how these coalitions are built and things like that and like how we understand um these53 minutes, 54 seconds
racial coalitions I think that's uh just important. And I think right now like racial politics, you know, the real54 minutes, 3 seconds
thing
is like racial politics just incredibly predictive. Like there's just
some ironies of this time period. racial index. You talked about that
the54 minutes, 11 seconds
Democratic Party got more left on a lot of things uh over the 2010s54 minutes, 18 seconds
race uh being one of them and civil rights, but also to some extent like Biden was more pro- labor and things54 minutes, 26 seconds
like that and affluent white liberals like voted in larger numbers in the suburbs. Like it's a very interesting thing that like54 minutes, 35 seconds
I
mean we saw a lot of signaling and fa and not substantive depth to this
but also like it's just we're in a fascinating uncertain moment. This54 minutes, 43 seconds
wasn't to push back on anything Hakee said as much as to just say like the future is going to be very interesting like54 minutes, 51 seconds
I
agree very volatile and we don't even know how to the extent they'll
send they'll do some real backsliding on these next elections and going
forward55 minutes
and we don't know the districts yet and Louisiana like Perry said earlier Louisiana is cancelling an ongoing55 minutes, 6 seconds
election
with tens of thousands of votes already cast to draw its districts to
eliminate a black district and redo the election with less black
representation.55 minutes, 16 seconds
It's like this is so volatile. Like I want to send that message too. We have a lot I55 minutes, 24 seconds
I agree. And an image that I saw yesterday, you know, that heartened even this uh skeptical and cynical soul is in55 minutes, 33 seconds
Tennessee where you saw images of all of these white folks, you know, marching. I believe it was up the state house steps55 minutes, 42 seconds
and that sort of thing. I I think this point about volatility is so key, Jake,55 minutes, 48 seconds
that we just don't know how this stuff is going to play out. One of the things that I will say is it's so interesting55 minutes, 57 seconds
to observe, you're talking about some of this older leadership and the like in these different periods of American history.56 minutes, 5 seconds
It is so interesting if we think about the march that got us, you know, at least played an important role in56 minutes, 12 seconds
getting us the the Voting Rights Act of 1965. I mean, another feature of the Black Politics cannon uh that we've both56 minutes, 20 seconds
alluded to is just the way that political incorporation has changed the nature of how black politics is56 minutes, 30 seconds
expressed. And so, you know, uh, I already hopped Katherine Tate's Black Faces in the Mirror, but the other book56 minutes, 37 seconds
that I'm looking at on my desk is her book, From Protest to Politics, what it means that uh that black people and56 minutes, 45 seconds
black political elites have been so incorporated into party politics and how how it just changes the nature of the56 minutes, 54 seconds
way that black people demand rights. And so that's all to say like the Supreme57 minutes
Court just undermined, just defanged uh the crown jewel of the Civil Rights Movement, uh the 1965 Voting Rights Act.57 minutes, 10 seconds
Uh if we were in a different period of time, black political elites would have responded, I think, uh differently. You57 minutes, 19 seconds
would have seen a much more animated response. And I think one of the things that has really uh stood out to me is57 minutes, 28 seconds
that, and of course I'm exaggerating perhaps for a fact, but what stood out to me uh in the aftermath of this57 minutes, 39 seconds
severely consequential decision from the court that is so about race and black57 minutes, 46 seconds
political power. Is just the weakness uh of black political elites. in this57 minutes, 53 seconds
moment like you just don't and maybe I'm looking for something that you mean I mean like here's what I mean Perry and and maybe58 minutes, 1 second
I'm
looking for something that mirrors more uh the moment out of which the
Voting Rights Act uh came and maybe that's a foolish thing uh to look
for.58 minutes, 15 seconds
Uh but I think I'm looking for something uh and I I'm just at my core just an ordinary person out in this political58 minutes, 22 seconds
world. I think I'm I think I do want greater expressions of of of of anger58 minutes, 29 seconds
and and and calls for for mass political organizing and and for a political project. Uh and maybe I'm looking for58 minutes, 38 seconds
that
from the wrong people. Perhaps this is the role of ground level
activists and not the not the the work of Hakee Jeff or the black of the
Black Caucus.58 minutes, 50 seconds
But I I think I I'm looking for something, Perry, that just sounds different, that sounds more urgent, that58 minutes, 57 seconds
sounds like it understands how critical this is. And again, I'm not saying that they haven't expressed59 minutes, 5 seconds
anger, disappointment, disbelief, but I think I am looking for something uh that sounds the alarm a bit more than what59 minutes, 14 seconds
I've
heard. And perhaps I've just missed it. Uh, but I think I am looking
for something that sounds a little more like this is a five alarm fire
emergency and59 minutes, 23 seconds
we should all be in the streets like uh yesterday. I think that's what I I'm looking for.59 minutes, 28 seconds
I
know we're getting to the end here. I know Jay's got to go, but I want
to make me make two points in response to that a little bit, which is
that the first one is, and I think Jake got this a little59 minutes, 36 seconds
earlier, is that the black politicians are now embedded fully in in a Democratic party hierarchy. And the Democratic parties59 minutes, 45 seconds
decided
the last five years that talking about race is bad. They decided there
was a backlash to BL BLM, not sure if it's there. They decided that
Kamla59 minutes, 53 seconds
Lawson part because she's black. So, I think that's corporation. Yeah.59 minutes, 58 seconds
Yeah.
And the other part is I do I would distinguish between like fair fight
action black there are groups Charlotte Eiffel I mean if you if you if
you1 hour, 6 seconds
distinguish
between when I look for black leadership today I don't I don't listen
to Kla Harris Barack Obama I'm not sure that was maybe too1 hour, 13 seconds
blunt but I mean in a certain sense or Clyber in a certain sense the people who can speak on black interest in a more1 hour, 20 seconds
direct way are often not prominent black members of the Democratic party. I think that's telling I think I think that's a1 hour, 28 seconds
telling point for I'll let Jake give the last word.1 hour, 30 seconds
Well, I no I think you know I'm in no huge rush but uh uh Hakeim is I think that was so on point. I want what it1 hour, 38 seconds
speaks
to me is the civil rights movement. Yeah. We think of Martin Luther
King in his 30s but also that's pretty young but also it's student
group. It's SNICK.1 hour, 48 seconds
Exactly. and students um you know whether it's freedom writers from the north or southern students who1 hour, 55 seconds
went to rural black schools uh you know and Rosenwald schools in the rural south like these this is a different youthled1 hour, 1 minute, 3 seconds
movement
and now the relationship between youth and protest politics is very
different there was a youthlessled movement the past few years the1 hour, 1 minute, 12 seconds
Democratic party and liberal institutions joined in crushing it is a signal that that style of youth politics1 hour, 1 minute, 19 seconds
that may be unwieldy and is not incorporated into these institutions,1 hour, 1 minute, 24 seconds
but it's funny is not friendly. And the we like the movie uh Selma makes LBJ seem like such1 hour, 1 minute, 31 seconds
a
like hardass anti like this damn Martin Luther King again. But like and
that's like partially true, but is this it's this symbiotic
relationship where Obama said it too, pressure me, right?1 hour, 1 minute, 43 seconds
Politicians
have a different role than movement leaders. And I think we're in a
moment of social media, nationalized politics, um, and a different1 hour, 1 minute, 51 seconds
relationship
between youth and social and institutional trust that really needs to
be rectified. I think older generations in institutions need to1 hour, 1 minute, 59 seconds
think
hard about, you know, you want to come down on this protest because you
don't like it here, but you'll need youth protest very soon to protect
institutions like the Voting Rights Act.1 hour, 2 minutes, 10 seconds
Then the last thing I'll say in this new era of nationalized politics and social media where people do not think in terms1 hour, 2 minutes, 17 seconds
of
their district representative in the same way except the older ones
like Hakeim's point about Clyurn being around. That's true. Like I'm
from San1 hour, 2 minutes, 26 seconds
Francisco where Nancy Pelo it's like yeah like I guess you don't really think it's not like for me Nancy Pelosi is not1 hour, 2 minutes, 33 seconds
like you have like she's like Frisco like me like I really let me flex I've been to the I've been to the Clyurn fish fry1 hour, 2 minutes, 42 seconds
I
like it and I'm saying what I'm saying is like there's a different
relationship to district representation across the board now which
demands new institutions. So1 hour, 2 minutes, 51 seconds
the voting rights act section two going down is a absolutely the biggest deal tragedy period for black representation.1 hour, 2 minutes, 59 seconds
We also there already was writing on the wall that we needed a new model of representation about coalitions not your1 hour, 3 minutes, 6 seconds
individual
district representative and that's because in national parties where
when you're in the minor I talk about Katanji Brown Jackson as this this
is1 hour, 3 minutes, 15 seconds
the
Katanji Brown Jackson theory here that she is probably the most
brilliant Supreme Court justice maybe ever like certainly in my lifetime
like reading1 hour, 3 minutes, 24 seconds
these dissents does her role on the court like actually matter compared to some replacement, you know, in the 631 hour, 3 minutes, 31 seconds
minority.
Like, yeah, her descents are so fire, but it's like really if it would
be different if you had the majority, a 54 majority she was on. So,1 hour, 3 minutes, 41 seconds
it's become more true where it's not about the individual representative Ruth Bader Ginsburg retiring. She's an1 hour, 3 minutes, 48 seconds
inspiration
to women and second wave feminism. That's not a big deal if you
actually lose row and you actually just lose, right? It's the same in
state1 hour, 3 minutes, 57 seconds
legislatores and in Congress. And for that reason, we need a new model that will uh be faithful to all coalitions.1 hour, 4 minutes, 4 seconds
One
per person, one vote standard like the Voting Rights Act is about. But
in this new era, the Voting Rights Act was in a different depolarized
era where1 hour, 4 minutes, 12 seconds
there
were northern pro-ivil rights Republicans. This is not the era anymore.
A new model will look about the one person one vote standard in1 hour, 4 minutes, 20 seconds
coalition something like proportional representation that says you know it's not about just being represented by an1 hour, 4 minutes, 28 seconds
individual right we need to think about percentages of Americans Americans want this direction that direction that would1 hour, 4 minutes, 35 seconds
actually
make black people not a captured constituency within the Democratic
party but actually pivotal in coalition say you know we actually on1 hour, 4 minutes, 43 seconds
this
issue can coalition here on this issue coalition here. Um, that would
be a different model that would match the times we're in. So, I
encourage1 hour, 4 minutes, 51 seconds
everybody
to think about reforms Congress can do like multimember districts for
proportional representation to break out of this idea1 hour, 4 minutes, 59 seconds
that
your personal representative is the main thing when actually what
matters is who controls the lever of government. Right now,1 hour, 5 minutes, 7 seconds
we're
in there. It's a great conversation. I I have like three threads of
other conversations I want to get into. We're going to stop here. We
need to get diva Woodley for sure. Good1 hour, 5 minutes, 15 seconds
thing to see you have some good insight what we're talking about here. Um Hakee is at Stanford. He is um he's on Blue1 hour, 5 minutes, 23 seconds
Sky
though if you want to see here's some great insights about politics and
race and the connections. I think Jake is on both X and um and Blue Sky
and1 hour, 5 minutes, 32 seconds
also
writing a lot for the Adam Bonica blog. What's that called? Uh Data
Data for Democracy. Data for Democracy was excellent. Yeah.1 hour, 5 minutes, 41 seconds
Sonica.
Yeah. Um and uh uh just generally writing. Hakee mentioned I have a
piece in Slate uh this past week uh and uh we all do a lot of writing.1 hour, 5 minutes, 50 seconds
Thanks so much.1 hour, 5 minutes, 51 seconds
May I just flag one thing, Perry, for your audience is that on uh May 18th,1 hour, 5 minutes, 56 seconds
I've been talking a lot about Katherine Tate's work. On May 18th, uh it'll be available for streaming on Zoom while it1 hour, 6 minutes, 3 seconds
happens 400 p.m. Pacific time. I'll be in conversation with uh Katherine Tate uh who literally wrote the book on black1 hour, 6 minutes, 12 seconds
representation, why it matters and the like and uh Corey Fields who has done some really amazing work thinking about1 hour, 6 minutes, 19 seconds
black
Republicans. And so if you're interested in that, just Google uh I'm
sure it's easy to find uh black politics and American democracy
Stanford. You1 hour, 6 minutes, 28 seconds
should
be able to find it. I'll send the link to Perry so that he can he can
add it to the comments. All right. Thanks, guys. See you. Thanks, Perry.
Be well. Take it easy.
The New Republic
13K subscribers
You can watch this episode of Right Now With Perry Bacon above or by following this show on YouTube or Substack.
In the wake of the U.S. Supreme Court’s Louisiana v. Callais ruling, states in the South are rushing to eliminate their majority-Black congressional districts. Tennessee passed legislation to do that on Thursday, and it could happen soon in Alabama, Louisiana and South Carolina too. Jake Grumbach and Hakeem Jefferson, political scientists at University of California, Berkeley and Stanford University respectively, say that the Callais ruling and these states’ subsequent gerrymandering isn’t just a story about electoral politics. They argue that we are witnessing a sustained attack on Black political power, particularly in the South, the region where the majority of Black Americans live. Jefferson explains why Blacks (and other minority groups) often gain particular benefits by being represented by someone from that group. Grumbach says that the Supreme Court is being disingenuous in suggesting that partisanship and race are distinct from one another, so it’s therefore okay for states to create districts based on party. In reality, particularly in the South, racial and partisan attitudes are deeply intertwined. So gerrymandering by party is effectively gerrymandering by race as well.
Right Now With Perry Bacon
No comments:
Post a Comment